Interview with András Lányi
Writer, philosopher, university lecturer, and founder of the Master’s program in Human Ecology at ELTE’s Faculty of Social Sciences. This interview is part of a series in which renowned scholars – including Ferenc Jordán, András Takács-Sánta, András Szöllősi-Nagy, Alexandra Köves, and Réka Aszalós (https://vulkanfolyoirat.hu/10-millio-fa/) – have shared their thoughts with us on the future we face amid the ecological crisis.
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– In 2000, you chained yourself in front of the Gresham Palace, which we can say seemed like an improbable idea, yet it was a strong gesture. So much so that this action inspired a protest organized at that location in 2022 by 10 Million Trees regarding the firewood/deforestation regulation. Are you aware that this action inspired others as well?
I have written more than twenty books, but none have had the impact of this action when I chained myself to the tree with a bicycle lock and sat down to read. It was, of course, a conscious communication gesture. At that time, the Védegylet was being formed, which had the slogan that we are making politics out of environmental protection.
We realized that whether we are protecting animals or forests, it always collides with some political will. A striking action was needed. Although there were more important, more endangered groups of trees in Hungary, this one was practically standing in the country’s main square, near the Chain Bridge, so it was a very deliberate choice.
The reason they wanted to cut down the trees there was that they obstructed the view from the hotel windows. We did not think that they would refrain from doing so for our sake, although in the end, a few trees remained. Right now, a dear old friend of mine, Ágoston Ébert, is preparing to chain himself to a tree on Rozgonyi Piroska Street at the Roman Coast, because since spring, there has been a fight to save a century-old chestnut tree line, which is being thinned out on the grounds that the trees are sick.
However, the determination of when trees are sick depends on a vague rule that states, for example, that a tree that is presumed to fall in 180 km/h winds can be legally removed. But when has there been such wind in Budapest? In the past millennium, winds of 172 km/h have been recorded only once.
The other method of examination is visual inspection. This was developed by Dezső Radó, the greatest protector of Budapest’s trees and parks, in the 1980s and 1990s. The method examines the root system, the foliage, and the extent of neglect, disease, and dryness. It is professional, but when this is assessed through visual inspection, many conclusions do not follow.
My experience is that when someone wants to build something somewhere, the visual inspection, that is, the expert’s opinion, is usually that all the trees in the way of the construction are sick. Unfortunately, this has also been the case along the roads by Lake Balaton, where tree lines are being cut down one after another. Of course, maintaining a tree line is always more cumbersome than not maintaining it.
– Would you chain yourself again now?
No, I am encouraging my students to do that instead.
– How did you transition from being a writer-philosopher-filmmaker to a human ecologist? And what does the Master’s program you founded, where you still teach, focus on?
The program is fundamentally rooted in social sciences, which includes natural science subjects. We deal with the social causes and consequences of the ecological crisis.
The question, of course, is really how humans operate. This is simultaneously a philosophical, ethical, sociological, and political philosophical question, and I have been dealing with these matters for quite some time. To be honest, I was interested in history and literature; I was a contributor to the journal Liget, and just last week, a volume of mine was published, containing historical and literary essays titled Farewell to the Nineteenth Century.
I could also put it this way: I did not want to engage with the ecological crisis; the ecological crisis began to engage with me.
The issue of the Bős-Nagymaros dam was the first in the 1980s when, thanks to my friend Gábor Karátsony, I got involved in the wave of protests. Suddenly, I found myself in the midst of debates where arguments were needed, so I started reading, learning, thinking, and debating.
– What do you think about the current role of intellectuals? It seems that the discourse has remained focused on the predominantly sociologically based themes of the 1980s – the Roma question, poverty – and the ecological crisis has not really entered the dialogue.
There are three major thematic groups that intellectuals jump into: the national intellectuals focus on questions of national identity and historical grievances, the liberal intellectuals on individual rights and free market competition, and the leftist or socialist intellectuals on social inequality, injustice, and disadvantaged minority groups. Anything that does not fit into these three categories does not elicit a response from intellectuals. Meanwhile, a fourth, significant problem cluster has emerged, concerning the fact that vital natural supply systems have reached their capacity limits, and the resources that nature provides for the cycle of life have significantly diminished.
We need to rethink our fundamental concepts: what makes existence good, what does my freedom entitle me to, do I want economic growth, is it certain that development and growth are synonymous concepts? These are fundamental worldview questions that primarily the intellectuals should address. This is an intellectual task that we have not completed, and we are surprised that the country is being rapidly paved over, arable land is deteriorating, and biological diversity is in ruins.
You wouldn’t believe that in the protected Pilis forest, just a hundred meters from inhabited areas, a villa is being built in the middle of the forest, while not far away, homeless people are building their small mini-cities. I actually understand the latter much better, but the point is that the forest boundary is receding.
How can it happen that everything is built over and the laws are not violated? Nothing truly protects the green areas of Budapest, nor those in the countryside. Instead of forests, they operate with tree plantations, but just because we plant the same species of trees next to each other, that does not make it a forest! A forest is an ecosystem that includes old, dead trees, young shoots, plenty of undergrowth, bushes, and animals. It takes about 300 years for a real mature forest to establish itself. The most beautiful forests in Transdanubia are being sent as biomass to the thermal power plants in Ajka and Pécs. They are clear-cutting forests just to burn them.
– In a previous interview, Ferenc Jordán said that biologists and ecologists have talked and written enough; now it is the turn of social scientists and philosophers to refine the discourse…
Natural scientists are not familiar with the literature of philosophy and social sciences, while we are not acquainted with theirs. Around the world, and even at home, it was mostly humanists, writers, painters, and filmmakers who began to worry about the state of the environment back then, seeking explanations for how late modern industrial society had deteriorated to the point of cutting down its own trees and destroying its own living conditions. In the 1990s, we began to voice these concerns, and only a few natural scientists agreed with us. I believe that biologists started to worry and engage with this issue too late.
– In your writing titled “To Hope,” you state that the future of nature is not a scientific question. You also list potential solutions, suggesting that despite the grim picture, there is a way to change things?
We must rid ourselves of the question: what can I do alone, what can a small country do on its own? Among the factors of the ecological crisis, the climate crisis is the only one that is a global issue, which makes its solution seem more distant. However, there is room for change regarding water pollution, soil degradation, and the collapse of biodiversity.
Who is preventing us from transitioning to water-retaining agriculture in Hungary, who is stopping us from protecting our forests, greening our settlements, shifting to sustainable forms of agriculture, and safeguarding vital pollinator insects from the effects of substances known as pesticides?
Because if no one is, then it is clear that every country, indeed every settlement, could theoretically protect its environment.
The reason climate change gets such good press is that there is not much we can do about it alone; it truly requires international cooperation, which makes us feel absolved of responsibility. What we can still do is conscious family planning, that is, gradually reducing the current population of humanity, decreasing anthropogenic material and energy flows, promoting a circular economy, transitioning to environmentally friendly, smaller-scale, gentle technologies, decentralizing the economy, radically curtailing long-distance trade, and rediscovering opportunities for a good human life that do not depend on the consumption of material goods. Above all, this would mean breaking the economic and cultural monopoly of global networks and allowing local communities to assert their will and regain the means of genuine self-determination.
– Is this fundamentally not a political question?
It is not just that. The political, economic, scientific, cultural, and media elite, which derives its power from the existing world order, has no interest in changing those forms of management or the prevailing concept of well-being. They promise a multitude of material goods and services as compensation because they cannot provide meaningful work, social recognition, substantial human relationships, or a healthy, intact environment for the majority. Work hard, earn a lot, consume more, travel elsewhere, enjoy yourself, and buy our services; that will make you beautiful and successful.
– These are not very promising prospects. Where do you draw your optimism from?
Since the dawn of time, the existing system has persisted because it was strong, yet the small and weak have still managed to change their fate. Perhaps the inflexible, calcified, self-perpetuating system will collapse on its own, or the new will indeed overcome the old.
We are aware of the technologies that could already replace the brutal, large-scale, energy-wasting, polluting technologies with environmentally friendly, locally adapted, small-scale, gentle processes. The country that first steps out of this hamster wheel, which we call economic global competition, will be the one to benefit.
The competitiveness myth that our beloved Prime Minister is now trying to force down our throats reflects outdated thinking.
In the competition where we must simultaneously compete with the cheapest Asian and African slave labor and the most advanced American high technology, we can only be losers. However, if we manage our resources according to our own conditions and reduce our dependence on the global economy, many jobs will be created, the employment structure will become more diverse, transportation will decrease, and we would not be so reliant on distant partners. Of course, those who have become billionaires from what currently works would be at a disadvantage, and the tools for influencing public opinion are in their hands.
– In the previously cited writing, you also mention that we are the first generation that lives with the awareness of an impending disaster, and probably the last that can still significantly influence its outcome. Why do you think so?
Every generation starts from a worse situation than the last. We are making decisions that will be defining for multiple generations or even forever, which will radically limit the life opportunities of those who come after us. They will only be able to choose from the stock we left for them in the pantry. What we have consumed in front of them is gone. Therefore, our responsibility is unprecedentedly great. It is common to mention climate anxiety, but young people should not be anxious; they should be afraid.
Climate anxiety can be cured by identifying its cause. If you know what you are afraid of, then you can defend against it, and you have already moved towards constructive action. This is the real system change, not in the sense of power. Responsible participation in managing my own fate.
Of course, we cannot expect anyone to spend their time solving global or national problems; that is the job of politicians. Politics is unavoidable, but regardless of that, everyone can find plenty to do in their own lives, and if they look around, they may find companions with whom, by joining forces, they can achieve something more: a better quality of life for ourselves and our fellow beings. I should note that politics also starts somewhat like this.
